Episode 76: Elevating Your Marriage: Strengthening Bonds and Breaking Patterns with Special Guest Kameran Thompson Al-Areqi

Ever feel like the spark is gone—but you’re not sure how to get it back?

This special episode from the Modern Mom's Roadmap to Balance Podcast was such an inspiration that we are re-releasing it for our Love After Kids series. In this episode, I sit down with Gottman-certified marriage coach Kameran Thompson Al-Areqi to talk about how couples can rebuild emotional safety and reconnect in a meaningful way—even if things feel strained right now.

✨In this episode, we dig into:

• How to rebuild trust when you feel disconnected.
• The surprising role of emotional bids in everyday conversations.
• Why your childhood impacts your marriage more than you think.
• What real repair looks like (and why it matters more than avoiding conflict).

🎧If you're navigating a rough patch or just want to be more intentional in your relationship, this one’s for you.

Helpful Links:

Website: https://recognizingpotential.com/

Find Kameran on Social Media
FB: Kameran Thompson

Other resources noted:

Fair Play by Eve Rodsky

Thank you so much for joining me this week on today's episode. Be sure to follow me on IG @therapy.with.kayla

I love hearing about your insights and aha! moments from the show. 

About the Podcast Host
Kayla Nettleton is a TX-based licensed therapist, business owner, and mom of 3.

In her private practice, Kayla helps women break free from cycles of anxiety, perfectionism, and people-pleasing. Her holistic approach guides clients toward authentic, fulfilling lives by reconnecting with their intuition, setting boundaries, and building confidence.

Kayla also works with couples, especially parents balancing marriage and family. She offers both traditional couples therapy and focused intensives (6 to 18 hours) to help partners address key issues like communication, trust, and intimacy.

Through empathy and effective therapeutic tools, Kayla helps couples reconnect, thrive, and create healthier, more supportive relationships. Her practice transforms self-doubt and disconnection into growth, healing, and lasting change.

Find Kayla on

IG: @therapy.with.kayla

TikTok: therapy.with.kayla

YouTube: The Modern Mom's Roadmap to Balance Podcast

Email: kayla@kaylanettleton.com

Free Consultation: Schedule a Free 20 minute therapy consultation here.

Transcript

1:02

Hey Cameron, how's it going? Hey, great! How are you? I'm doing well. It's hot, which I'm sure when we put this out, it will not be hot, but yeah. How's the weather over there? We're in Houston, so it's hot all the time. We have summer and hell's front porch for, for season. So, you know, unless you're putting this out in February, it will still be hot. Yeah. Maybe not February, but maybe in like December, January. It'll still be hot. We'll see. Oh yeah, I know. I know. I remember one Christmas it was like, you were wearing shorts on like Christmas and you're like, oh, it doesn't feel like Christmas because it's hot. Even though that's how it is all the time. I've lived in Texas almost my whole life. So I don't know why I keep telling myself, well, it doesn't feel like Christmas, even though Christmas is usually like this. See, we haven't, we lived, we've only been in tech. Well, so I'm originally from Kansas. My husband's from Egypt, so he doesn't know any different. But for me, like I grew up with seasons and so like, it's almost depressing for me to be around Christmas and it's still 87 degrees because that's not Christmas to me, so it's a struggle. I get it. But before we continue talking, because I know we can let me introduce you. Yeah. So this is Cameron Thompson. She's a pilot wife, mom of two boys, and a Gottman certified marriage coach. She's helped hundreds of couples save and better their marriage. And prides herself in being authentic, accessible, and having a 93 percent success rate with her clients. She lives in Houston, Texas, with her family, and loves traveling, reading, and connecting with friends. Thanks so much again for joining, and I'm so excited that we were going to be able to talk about relationships today, because other than the topic of motherhood, relationships, And helping people create better relationships and healthy relationships is one of my greatest passions because I, I love love and I love people being happy in their relationships. Well, and it's also a big part of motherhood. You know, you, you can't be the best. I mean, being a mom is exhausting and even more draining when your marriage or your relationship is struggling. And so by bettering your marriage, it also helps you become a better mom too. Absolutely. So one of the things that I don't know, people realize is that seeking help in your marriage. Is not a it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with y'all as people, not at all. And 1 of the reasons why I bring this up is because. People wait too long before seeking out help. I had recently read a statistic that people, couples wait six years before even reaching out for help. And by that time, it's not that it's hopeless, but it's harder than if you would have came in when you started noticing the problem really getting in the way. The way that I explain it to my clients is when they first start with me is that when you like, as you grow up, you have this suitcase that you're always taking with you. Right. And so you're packing all of your experiences and your education and you know, just everything that happens to you in life, you're packing. Getting it into the suitcase and then and your partner, wherever they are in the world before you meet them, they're doing the exact same thing. And then you guys meet and you get married and you move in together and you basically dump out your suitcase in the middle of the living room floor. And then you spend the rest of your life sorting through it saying, do we throw this away? Do we keep this? Do we put this on a shelf to actually, you know, display for people as they come over? Or do we hide this in a closet? Like, what are we doing with all of this, these experiences? And a lot of times. So like for me, I wasn't taught money. Money was not really something that was discussed a lot. I, I didn't know much about it. So when I got married, that was something my husband was really good at. So I had to really start accepting his influence on that too. And a lot of times people are so stuck in their ways and so stubborn and honestly, it's an immaturity thing that they are like, no, I'm not letting go of this. And yeah, so 6 years, that could be an experience. Maybe you had a bad experience with therapy as a child. And so your automatic go to is. Well, coaching and therapy are one in the same, and so I don't want to, I don't want to get help. You know, we'll just, and a lot of the things that I hear is we can just fix this on our own. Well, if you could. You already would have so you only know what you know, and if you didn't have a good experience with your parents marriage, or you didn't have a lot of good healthy examples of what marriage is growing up, you're not going to know any different. You're not going to do anything different. And so it's just going to be completely repeating the cycles and everything. Everything goes back to our childhood. Oh, yeah, I completely agree with that. Absolutely. And especially. I like that you said, you only know what you know, because I say that a lot we are not perfect people. And oftentimes our, our parents or caregivers or all the relationships in our life that we've seen, they probably were doing the best that they could with the information they had. Oh, sure. So we took that information and now we're only doing. Or we're doing the best that we can with the information and knowledge that we have on being in a relationship. Yep. And sometimes you don't really have anything but what you've seen on TV or what you've seen in the movies. Sure. Absolutely. In fact, so I don't know how well versed you are in attachment styles, but So back in the 80s, when the attachment styles really came with, like, they were really starting to be studied, right? It was something like somewhere around 75 to 80 percent of people had a secure attachment. Well, if you think about it, the decades before that, moms were staying home with their kids. They were more emotionally available. You know, that was mom's purposes, right? Like, I'm going to raise these babies and that's my job. Okay. Well, then 80s, that's when moms started entering the workforce again, after like, that was when it really became heavy now. The generations that were born, like, 80s and 90s and then on into the 2000s, it has flip flopped. So now we're 75 percent of people have had a secure attachment. Now, almost 75 percent of people have an insecure attachment and it's because when we were kids, we weren't getting the emotional. The emotional needs that we had met and that's where I see a lot of issues too, is that and usually, like, not to throw the avoidance under the bus, but it's usually them that say, great childhood. I don't, there wasn't anything wrong with my childhood. Well, that's probably true. Like physically, you know, you had shoes on your feet, clothes on your back, food in your belly. But what about your emotional needs? Were your emotional needs met? Probably not. Because if they were, you wouldn't be avoidant. So, yeah, it's everything. Everything relates back to childhood. Mm hmm. Sometimes things are just not as obvious. And it's not to say that you didn't have a good childhood, just that there are things that could have been done better. And how can you learn that now so that if you have Children, they can be better also in the future? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's that. And, and honestly, that's something that I warn my, my clients about when they start to is that this is like the internal work that you have to do on yourself to become secure in your attachment style, to have healthier fight styles, to, you know, to do what you need to do to be the best spouse that you can possibly be. It's some of the hardest work that you will ever do and also the most rewarding. Because then you are giving your kids a good example of what perseverance looks like, what working on yourself looks like, what, you know, you're developing that emotional intelligence that kids aren't being taught in schools, so now you're able to teach it to them. Whereas if you don't do the work, then, you know, the cycle repeats for generations to come. Mm hmm. And it will. It will. Absolutely. But I wanted to mention that I loved that metaphor about the suitcase because it's so true. And you're always sifting. It's like the sifting never stops. Never. You're always sifting through that suitcase. Because you're always finding new things about your partner, and it's because maybe this paper got stuck onto one of your papers, or maybe it's something that they just realized was important to them. Well, or even, I mean, and, and even though like the day you get married, you getting to that suitcase doesn't stop because then you're having new experiences, you know, you become a mom, maybe you change a job, you move to a different city, like all of those experiences still keep happening because you're still living. So you're still adding to the pile that you're sifting through and like, there's, there's always just more to sift through. Yeah, yeah. So what are, or what would you say are the top three things a marriage needs to thrive in, if you could break down those things? So you mentioned in the beginning that I am Gottman certified. Mm-Hmm. So we, I love their diagram, if you will. It's called the sound house method or sound Relationship Method. So if you look at a house, the two pillars on the outside of like holding your marriage together, if you will. Is the first one is commitment and the second one is trust and then what fills up the house is friendship. Okay. Now, everything else. can basically be fit into one of those three categories. For example, commitment, the one reason that marriages like the marriage, the divorce rate keeps climbing. It's not even 50%. I think the last I checked a few months ago, it was like 54 percent now. And the reason that it continues to increase is because less and less people have commitment when they make those marriage vows. It's not really a vow anymore. There's not, it's not. Like it was meant to be a covenant between you and your spouse and God. And so like, and your family and friends are witnessing this to say, when your marriage gets hard and you go to them that way, they can say, Nope, you took these vows. Like you meant it for better or worse. Like that's what this means. And instead what we're having is the friends and family that witnessed you getting married are like, girl, you need to leave him because that is unacceptable. You know, things like that. I'm not talking like. Abuse and all of that, but just when marriage gets hard, because inevitably it will, there's seasons. And so, like we were talking before, instead of waiting six years to get help and learn a different way, that's where your friend says, what if you tried going to get coaching? What if you, you know, let me watch your kids for a weekend so you can have a marriage intensive. Let me, you know what I mean? Like, how can we help you? Here's what worked for our marriage. You know, why don't, what if you go talk to. Pastor or something like that. So there's that commitment is that people just aren't. As committed as what they need to be to have thriving marriages. The second one is trust. And the first one, and this is something that you're going to, that you're starting to see a lot more of, thankfully in the coaching realm and in marriages and, and all of the people that are, you know, putting out content is safety. It's not just physical safety. It's emotional safety. Are you a safe place for your. Partner to come talk to you every day for you to, you know, when they come and say, hey, I have, you know, this struggle. Are you meeting them with a solution immediately? Or are you listening to understand and say, yeah, you know, I, that's completely valid. Like, I would feel that way too. Or, You know, here, you know, I'm sorry that I, you know, hurt your feelings or I'm sorry that I said this or this, you know, like being that safe place, being trustworthy, you know, it's great that we can get a lot of content on Instagram, Facebook, Tik TOK, whatever, but also podcasts, but also are you taking that to a next level and following people that. You shouldn't be following. Are you talking to people that you shouldn't be talking to? Are you disrespecting? Like if your wife or your husband were to look at your social media, would they be okay? Or would they be upset? Would they be feel disrespected or would they feel like you have loyalty in the middle? And this is what I think, because we live in such a busy society and. It's almost like people wear busyness as a medal of honor that we're not letting each other into. And also because of that lack of safety, we're not letting each other into our worlds. You know, how have you changed in the last year? What do you like now that you didn't like before? You know, we're not, we're having conversations around information sharing and like, Okay. Well, you know, kid number three has a dentist appointment this week. Are you taking MRI? So like, you know, these teamwork conversations, but we share that vulnerability less, we are talking less about our intimate expressions and like, Hey, I really liked this that you did the other night. Not so much on this, that kind of thing. Are we, you know, talking about one thing that I see a lot is less and less conflict resolution. We're not talking about our conflicts and saying, you know, when you say this, it makes me feel this way or it makes me think this way or because when I was a kid, you know, my dad used to yell or this, you know, my mom was really critical or something like that. We're not having those conversations because we're exhausted. And a lot of that is because of lack of boundaries. And a lot of it is also because. We're so busy. We just don't make the time emotional laziness, to be honest. So then like without that friendship and those three things, you can't build on that and actually manage the conflict and have dreams and goals together. And then, you know, create that. We're sitting on a front porch together, drinking sweet tea, watching the sunset and our grandkids play in the yard kind of vision, no commitment, trust, and friendship. Thanks for that. And there are so many bits that I want to unpack a little bit. Yeah, don't worry. So the first thing was, let me think, when you said, are you listening, are you listening to Connect? Oh, no. Are you listening to understand or to respond? Yeah. Yes. Are you listening to understand? Because this is such a big deal. A lot of us will be listening, but not actually hearing what your partner is saying, because we're in the either I want to fix it mode, or how can I win mode? Or how can I make this better mode? And not actually hearing what you're saying. What your partner is saying, or what you need. Absolutely. It's also a case of it's, there's so many fundamental differences between men and women and how we're wired and also that anxious versus versus avoidant attachment to where a lot of times I will, you know, like as women typically, now these are blanket statements, but typically a woman is more emotional and the man is more logical and analytical. And so what will happen is, You know, we go to, you know, well, like I think in our house right now is we have a 14 year old and a 3 year old, basically the same emotions just on different scales. It's it's got big emotions in this house a lot. Yeah. So I'll go to my husband and say. The teenager's being a jerk again, you know, like blah, blah, blah. And I'm emotional about it. And he's like, okay, we'll take away his phone. Like he just immediately meets me with a logical answer. And I'm like, yeah, I don't need help there. I need you to say, it's okay, babe. You're still, you're still a good mom. Like I, you know, you've got this. We've, you know, do you want me to talk to him? Do you, what, what do we need to do? Like, do you want to send him to military school today? Like, you know what I mean? Like what, what, what, what would make you feel better? And at the end of the day, like, I have the solution, I need you to give me a solution, I just need you to be there, and I just need you to validate me that I am not crazy, and that I am not the worst mom in the world, because I've been told that three times today by him. So, you know what I mean? Things like that. So, it's that kind of stuff that a lot of times, are you listening to understand, or are you listening just to give a response so that I'll shut up kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And there are ways to not fix it. I don't want to say fix it, but change those perspectives and learn how to tune into their partners. Absolutely. It's, it's emotional intelligence. It's all emotional intelligence. And unfortunately, a lot of people think that that is something you're born with, just like your regular IQ EQ is learned emotional quotient is learned. It is not. Just given to you. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it's usually learned by what was modeled to you when you were a child. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. What were some of the other things that you wanted to unpack? Yeah, so the other one. Commitment, trust, and friendship. Oh, well, one of the things I wanted to bring up was you had mentioned we're not prioritizing and sometimes I think people expect or they don't recognize. How much work does actually need to go into making your relationship stay healthy? Because maybe it started off in a good place when you were first married and in the first few years, but at some point You probably stopped connecting because things got in the way, life started happening. Maybe you had kids or maybe you start a new job or maybe you were working through a promotion and we think like, Oh, well, once I get to this level, then we'll have more time. Or once we have this much money, then we'll have more time. But the reality is there's always going to be something that's going to get in the way unless you make connecting a priority. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, that's actually something that I'm seeing more and more in couples that I'm coaching right now, even in new couples that come to me that say, we just like the spark just isn't there anymore. I'm not, you know, when you, when I hear things like, The spark just isn't there anymore. I don't find her attractive. I'm not in love with him. You know, our bedroom life, your, your life in the bedroom is a direct reflection of your life outside the bedroom. So like, and it all comes down to one thing and that is connection. We're born as babies. Like we are literally born into this world needing connection. And if babies don't get that physical connection, they die. And if partners don't get that physical connection, that's when, you know, our love tank, if you will, literally just starts draining and connection. Again, it's one of those fundamental differences between men and women. So men, again, blanket statements, but men typically find connection in shoulder to shoulder friendship activities, go karting you know, playing a sport together, going on a walk at night, you know, doing things like that. Whereas women, we find connection in those deeper open ended conversations. And I, actually, I don't even want to say deeper because it could be things like, you know, used to be that your favorite ice cream is mint chocolate chip. Is that still the case or do you like something else? Oh, well, actually, I like rainbow sprinkles now. Like, you know what I mean? So, It's those conversations. It doesn't have to be super deep, but it can be. It can be, you know, questions like what's your biggest burden right now? What's your biggest stressor? And how can I help you through that? Things like that. That's how women typically can feel connected is through those conversations. And this is I was actually working with a couple not too long ago where Yeah. He said, he goes, when I ask you to come out and, and I'm working on the lawnmower or something, I just want you to sit there. I don't, you know, I don't necessarily need you to help me. I just want you to sit there and be there with me. And she's like, that's so irritating. And he goes, you know what, when you ask me all those questions on a road trip, those, those are irritating too. So the way that we connect with our partner is usually kind of irritating. But it's also what they need in order to connect and disconnection. This is also a very big, misconception about disconnection they think people think that conflict causes the disconnection and it's actually the other way around the disconnection is causing more conflict. So, when you are connected, you know, that's when you're lessening your conflict. You have more emotional intimacy, more emotional connection. So, you have better physical intimacy. You feel like you're a team and when things do arise that, you know, maybe in a, in a more disconnected time would have thrown you off track when life throws you those lemons, you're actually able to make that lemonade for, you know, the cliche. It's true though, like you're actually able to do something with it instead of just feeling like, well, it's just lemons. So I got, I got nothing for this. You know what I mean? So you're a lot, you're a lot better in your marriage when, when little things arise or even big things. Yeah. And I know with the Gottman method, cause I also base my own therapy with couples on the Gottman method that they talk a lot about the bids for connection and turning towards your partner and how that's important for having the conflict stay. You know, lower. Yes, absolutely. And do you want to talk a little bit about bits of connection? Yeah. So bits of connection. I don't think people, you know, you were talking earlier about the different stages of life, right. And when we're dating, when we're in that first stage, the romance stage, we. Don't really think about, you know, you know, when our partner says something like, Oh, you know, what do you think about ice cream? Oh, I love ice cream. Do you want to get some right now? Like you're turning towards your partner without even thinking about it, but then, you know, you enter into the power struggle. Stage and this is usually the stage that makes or breaks a couple and it can last anywhere from a few months to decades in your marriage. And so when you're in that power struggle stage and you're like, like you said, like life gets busy and you know, you've got things coming at you. You've got things changing, moving or different jobs or kids or whatever. That's when things get hard. And that's also, again, because of the disconnection, your partner's looking out the window and they're like, Oh, I think it might rain today. And you either turn towards them and you're like, Oh, really? I didn't see that on the news this morning. Or I didn't see the radar. I haven't looked outside or whatever, you know, or yeah, we definitely need some rain. Something like that versus just completely ignoring what they say or being like, Like there's no, there's no response there. So you either miss the bid for connection or you completely reject it. And it's those little micro rejections over time that make you feel even more disconnected. And then they're starting to be replaced with tiny Lego bricks of resentment. And once the resentment builds up too high, You've basically just got a wall between you and your partner with no window, no door, no access. And then that's when you end up calling it quits. So with those bids kit for connection, like they're so important. And what, what I thought was interesting when I was going through all my training was that a couple can actually bid for each other's connection over a hundred times in a single meal. And it's things like, yeah, a single meal, a hundred times, it's things like a look that you shoot your partner from across the room or, you know, that's like, Hey, It's time to bail. Like, I'm done with these people. Or, it's a look that says, Hey, you wanna go? Cause you're looking pretty great in that dress. Like, it's those things. It's a touch of the hand. It's it's the little questions that you ask that are meaningless, like, Hey, did you lock the door? I know you lock the door. It's the job that you do every night. Like you know what I mean when, and a lot of people get irritated with their partner for asking those little things and they don't realize that it is a bid for connection. Yeah. Or even just talking about the way the food tastes. Sure. Or whether or not it met their expectations. This was not what I expected today. I was expecting this. Those are all good connections as well. Yeah. They're not obvious, like, hey, pay attention to me, or hey, I'm missing connecting with you. They're not always that obvious. Oftentimes, they're not obvious at all. They're a lot more subtle. Most of the time, they are more subtle. Yeah. Or even the, oh my gosh, did you hear about what happened to so and so the other day? Or did you hear what happened? There was a, I don't know, a police chase or something. Something, yeah. And whether or not you respond to that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that those conversations that we, you know, and it goes back to that friendship, you know, are you treating your partner like a friend if a friend came up to you and said, Oh, hey, you know, have you tried out such and such restaurant, which you'd be like, No, I just walk off. Would you be like, Oh, no, I haven't. You know, have you tried it? Did you like it? What did your wife think about it? I mean, you're going to have a conversation about it, right? And so thinking about your partner in that same regard, are you respecting them the way that you would a friend? Are you responding to them the way that you would a friend? Is your tone the same as you would use with a friend? It all goes back to that friendship. Oh, yeah. I remember reading in, in the Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work by John Gottman, who's one of the founders of the Gottman Method. There was a story of, of this, I think the, the couple The husband I think was a surgeon and he was like really mean to his wife but then no one would ever know because he was the nicest person at work. He was patient. And when you think of a surgeon or the way surgeons are portrayed on TV, they're usually mean and snarky and just like, right. One, one answer. I'm not trying to generalize surgeons, but that's how they are portrayed on the TV. But he was nice. And so when they realized that there was some disconnection here, they found that, or one of the things that they mentioned is oftentimes we are so, we give our friends so much slack, then we do our partner. Why, why wouldn't we give our partner more slack than our friends? Who we're not interacting with every day or who didn't make the same commitment that our partner made. Sure. So that comes down to actually two, two fold. The first one is that we project because our partners are the closest to us. We like, it's almost like we stopped valuing that and treating our marriage as a privilege. We don't realize like. Finding love and keeping love is so rare. I mean, it's 46 percent now, whereas 54 percent you get divorced. So, 46 percent chance that you, that you find that love and that you keep it. I think I read it Study the other day that said that marriages over 30 years old, it's only like 25 percent of marriages last past 30 years. So that was astounding to me. So it's that, it's the projection and also that projection comes in from, from you, like, how do you talk to yourself? And, and it goes back to your childhood because your mom's or your dad's voice. Is the one that's in your, in your subconscious. That's the voice that you hear when you mess up. When you don't meet those expectations. Is that a kind voice or is that a voice that is critical? If you are critical of yourself, you are definitely going to be critical of your spouse and you may not even know it, you know, so it's that it's the whole, you know, how do you talk to yourself? How do you talk to your spouse? And then it's also giving each other the benefit of the doubt. There's so many times that you, those micro rejections, the small hurts, the not meeting each other's expectations, and then you start building that resentment instead of repairing after those conflicts. And so, it ends up building that wall. So, you know, it's two fold there with, you know, the, the emotional bids and, and then the, like how you treat your, your spouse. Yeah. And so you brought up giving your partner the benefit of the doubt, like those paying attention to those bids of connection or responding to them are only going to help you to help you and your partner have that, that positive influence, that easier ability to have the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, the other part of it, honestly, and I, I really don't think people understand how big this is, is that repair when they're repairing conflict so many couples and, and again, it's something that you watch do it. My parents were the same way, you know, my parents would fight and then they wouldn't talk to each other for 4 or 5 days and then it was just like, oh, okay, well, we're back to normal, you know, there was no like that I saw. There was never a discussion there was never an I'm sorry, there was, you know, there was never a five step apology. None of that. So with that, you know, If you're sweeping those, those conflicts under the rug, and it's you're just moving on, then it's harder for you to give your partner the benefit of the doubt, because you're still remembering historical events and being like, but last time. They did this, this, and this, and now I'm seeing a pattern, and so it's harder for me to forgive, so I'm going to hold it against you instead. Whereas with a friend, usually, you know, you'll talk about it, and you're a lot more careful. You value that relationship, and so you're a lot more careful with how you treat that friend. Whereas with our partners, We're not as careful and it's sad honestly. Yeah. And I think this also really highlights the importance of,'cause I've heard people talk about how they don't ever wanna fight in front of their kids. Mm-Hmm. And to some extent, you wanna be able to see your kid, you wanna your kids to be able to see you have conflict and argument. Absolutely. Yes. So important. Yeah, it's not a bad thing, especially if you go and learn how to do these repairs. Yes, conflict. There's nothing wrong with conflict. It happens. It's a healthy part of relationships, but it's can you manage this conflict? In a healthy and appropriate way. And if you can, your kids should be able to see that. I remember hearing a story. I can't remember her name, but her husband is Dax Shepard. And yes, Kristen Bell, I remember hearing an interview where they said that if they were ever having an argument in front of their kids. Whether or not they finish that argument in front of their kids, they always came back and did the repair in front of them, whether that was the exact same repair or they like made up a repair so that they could see them resolving the conflict. And I thought that was genius. I love it. It's so genius. Yes. And I'll tell you why. So real life example. My sister in law grew up. With her parents never having any conflict, no arguments, no nothing in front of the kids, my brother and, and my other siblings and I, we all grew up with. Our parents having conflict in front of us. And so my brother and my sister in law get married and my sister in law, like the first time that they ever had an argument in front of my nephew, they like, she freaked out and she was like, I don't, we can't be doing this. We can't do this. And of course my brother's like, what's the big deal? Like, I don't understand. She didn't like. Because she had grown up, she didn't have that. She didn't know how to have a healthy conflict in front of the kids. And so, like, she did. She had that idea that, like, you, you just can't have conflict in front of the kids. And that's where my brother was like, well, then how are they supposed to learn? And so. Yeah, so they, they did have to learn how to do healthy conflict management. Because that was one thing that my family did not have, but then they were able to, and that's part of going through that suitcase, right? What do we, what do we put out on the shelf? What do we do? What do we, you know, throw away? Like, how do we mesh these ideas together? So the way that they meshed it was, okay, we do have conflict in front of the kids, but we also learn how to have healthy conflict. In front of the kids and learn to repair in front of them. So yeah, that's really important. Yeah. And even like if because we're not perfect people, right? So nobody is some extent. We're not always going to have the best conflict management. Sometimes we're going to be just so stressed out. We couldn't contain ourselves. Sure. That's why the repairs are so helpful. It's not. I remember it, the, the Gottman's part of their research was, it wasn't even necessarily yeah. The couples that had the worst conflict that ended in divorce. It was no as long as they came back and repaired in their own way that worked for them, that saved them. Absolutely. And in fact, so it's the happiest couples, the happiest couples. still have conflict. They report having conflict, but that's, that was the study that you're talking about is, is the happiest couples. They still report being very happy and very satisfied with their marriage, even if they're having conflict every single day, as long as they repair it every single day. Yeah. And that, that wouldn't be uncommon to have conflict every single day. I think, think that statement would shock someone. In this day and age with everything, yeah. Things that we're dealing with and the stress and the, yeah. Trying to do all the things and like I said, wearing busyness as a medal. Like, no. Conflict every day of some sort would be very easy to, to have. Yeah, yeah. But I know that someone hearing that could be like conflict every day. Oh my gosh, that sounds horrible. But it's, it's little things like approaching your husband that they forgot to take out the trash again. Yeah, this week, or I don't know. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. But there's so many things complaining about the kids and will you always complain, do something about it, you know, insecurities you know, yeah, you forgot to do this. You forgot to do that. The teamwork thing. One of the biggest things in marriages that, that creates conflict is division of household labor. And the mental load of things, you know, like there's again content that's starting to be put out there. That's really beneficial, but it is it's mental load and division of housework. That is 1 of the biggest predictors of divorce or 1 of the biggest causes. Yeah, and that makes me remember that book by E. Brodsky um, Fairplay. Fairplay, yeah. Yes. Yeah. That book, it really dives into that, that division and, and the mental load and you could do a whole episode or more just on that. Oh, yeah. Easily. Easily. Easily. Yeah. There's a couple of there's an Instagram and Facebook. His name is Zach. I think his last name is Watson, but he talks a lot about, he calls himself a recovering man child. And he's always like, he gives really good examples from his own marriage of he'll say, like, one of them is. I can't just go to my wife and say, Hey, I'm going to make dinner. What would you like me to make? Because it's that, what would you like me to make that? Well, she's still having to figure it out. And then she's looking for like, you may be cooking it, but the mental load is. What is he making? Do we have the ingredients for it? If we don't, then what do I need to go to the store to get? Or what do I need to send him to get? And if he goes, do I need to write out name brands of things and, you know, quantities of things and all of that? Or can he just go like that kind of thing? Yeah, it's a, it's a struggle. One of the things that our marriage, when Mo and I got married they don't have dryers. In the Middle East. And so they basically just line dry their clothes out on, you know, out on the balcony because the sun it'll dry in 15 minutes unless it's winter. And then it literally takes all day for 1 load of clothes to dry. But yeah, it's ridiculous. But when he came, he was like, A dryer. Cool. I'll just throw everything in the dryer. I lost so many sweaters, bras, like all of these things that I'm like, you cannot try these. And so, yeah, the mental load every time he did the laundry, I was like, no, no, no. Like, so yeah, I ended up taking an Expo marker and just writing on the outside of the dryer. There was a list of like 30 things and I was like, before you dry it, you check the list to see if this is on there. And so he learned eventually, but yeah, there, it was rough there at the beginning and that mental load was a lot harder just because he didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also like, you gave your husband the benefit of the doubt, like you, you knew he wasn't intentionally doing this or intentionally ruining your clothes. So it's just something he hadn't learned. And when we haven't learned something, it's gonna take a while or a little bit to figure out a system or figure out a way to learn this. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I had to have patience with him with things like that. They don't have dishwashers over there. So, you know, him, like, teaching him to load the dishwasher, the mail, they don't have mail over there. So, like, he loved getting the mail, but then. Learning how to mail things like where you put, okay, like you can't shove packages in the out, go in the outbox. That doesn't work. You know, like things like that. I mean, things that we take for granted because we learned it, but then he had to have patience with me over things like money because. I was a hot freaking mess. I didn't know how to balance my, that was clear back when we used checkbooks a lot, but I didn't know how to balance that sucker. I never had money in my account savings. We did not have a savings, like, you know, like things like that. And so as much as. It was irritating for me to have to teach him certain things. It was minor compared to what he had to teach me. So, you know, and that's, and that's the whole goal of marriage. People think that getting married, the whole goal is to be happy. It's not, it's not because happiness is a you thing. It's not your partner. So if you're not happy, that's on you. Like that's, that's not your partner's job. And if you're, if you're asking your partner to make you happy, you're selfishly asking them to do something that you're not willing to do for yourself. So it's not about being happy. It's about growing together, doing the growth to actually. Have a marriage that works for you, that works for your family, learning each other constantly because you're, you're both always changing through those experiences that you're having. So it's about growth. That's what, you know, who can you grow with and who's going to help you truly be the best version of yourself. Yeah, yeah, I love that you said that because that's so true. Your, your partner is not there to complete you. At least I don't think of it that way. They're there to elevate you, elevate each other. A marriage takes two whole people. Mm hmm. And if you feel like you're broken, you're not. You may not be completely whole in that you are secure in your attachment that you're, you know, that you've worked through some of the things that you need to work through. And again, that's on you, but a marriage can only be as healthy as the least healthy person in it. So, if that's you. You have to do something to make sure that you are not dragging your partner back with you. And so, yeah, like, it's all about two whole people coming together to create a team, to create a, you know, like, Yeah, being a coach, I'm, I'm very team oriented. How can we make the team work? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not about. It's just, I was just going to reiterate, like, it's not about happiness or, or it's just about growing as an individual and as a couple. And as we run out of time, one of the last things that I want to talk about before I give you a chance to talk about a little bit more about what you do, but what, so when you said teamwork, it's about making the team better. That just made me think, oh, if someone was resistant. To going into either working with a coach for couples or couples therapy That would be such a great line to use. You know, it's not that we're here to air out our dirty laundry. It's about figuring out how can we make our team better. But what, what have you seen is helpful when 1 of the partners is resistant. And seeking treatment. Yeah. So it goes back to that commitment, right? That, you know, you have to have the commitment first. If your partner now I will be just using my own experience here. I'll just, you know, I'm, like I said, I'm very authentic and vulnerable. I have no problem being that way. We struggled, Mo and I struggled really bad in the first years of our marriage. I wasn't happy. I was struggling really bad. I didn't have a purpose. I was teaching, but I, I hated it. Honestly, I knew it wasn't my purpose. I was good at it, but I, I didn't like it. I didn't, you know, it wasn't what I was meant to do. So we struggled because I was the least healthy person in our marriage. And so I went and got help for myself. Now, if that's flipped, You know, a lot of times and it did, it flipped later on down the line with me and Mo. And at one point Mo and I separated for a little bit. And I asked him one time, I said, why, why did you come back? And he said, honestly, Cam, he goes, I decided that. You had done, you were doing the work. You were bettering yourself. And he goes, I was watching that. And he goes, when I left, it was because I was intimidated. I looked at you and I was like, I'm never going to be able to meet her standards. I'm never going to be able to get to the point where she's at, which is a typical avoidant thought. I'm a failure. I'm stupid. It's never going to be good enough. That kind of thing. So we were in what's called the loop of doom. So I'm questioning, needing validation, blaming, criticizing all of these things because I'm lonely. It's just basically making him feel like I'm stupid, I'm a failure, all things. So it makes him mad or angry. He numbs out, which then makes me think, oh, he doesn't care. He's not committed. All of these things. Yeah. I can't trust him. I'm never going to be good enough. And so around and around, like if you're picturing an infinity symbol around and around, we go. Okay. And he said, he goes, we were in that loop and he goes, I didn't know, you know, how to fix it or how to, you know, what to do. But he goes, I was seeing that you were getting help and that you were doing such a great job and that was bettering you. And I wanted what you had. And so he goes, that's where I decided to go and get help myself. So. All of that to say, if you are in a marriage where your partner is like, nope, not getting therapy, nope, not getting help, not going to read a book, not going to do this, not going to do that, you do it, you go get help for yourself, you learn what you need to learn, you, you know, try to secure your attachment style as much as possible, you know, work through that childhood trauma, get as healthy as you can possibly get. And along the way, invite them. Okay, invite them and say, you know, I'm going, you know, I've scheduled and here's the thing as you go along their steps, right? So do what you can do for yourself when you've cleaned up your side of the street, then you go and you say, listen, I've done what I can do. I don't see any change from you. So I am booking with a couples therapist. Our appointment is Tuesday at 3 o'clock. Here is the address. You know, I would appreciate it if you would meet me there. Let's say they do. Great. Awesome. Move on. You know, get the help that you need. Better your marriage. Say they don't. Let's say they don't show up. Okay. Then you need to start setting boundaries and you need to start thinking to yourself, how much more am I going to take? Because at this point, your partner has emotionally abandoned you and they are being emotionally neglectful and emotionally avoidant. So if that's the case. And you don't want to live in a marriage like that. Like you've literally done everything that you can. And if they're not willing to, then you need to start, I mean, as, as pro marriages, I am, you also need to start thinking like, am I going to deal with this for the rest of my life? Because if you're not going to, and they're not committed, then we need to start thinking in terms of separation. And that's another thing that real quick, it's a misconception that separation has to lead to divorce. It doesn't. You can absolutely look at separation as. This is a way for us to start Marriage 2. 0. What was happening in our marriage isn't obviously working. So how do we, you know, separate, get time, get space, start dating again, start, you know, not dating other people, dating each other, and actually work through our issues and realize This is what divorce is going to be like if we don't change some things and get the help that we need. And because again, it goes back to that whole thing I said in the beginning, you only know what you know. So if you're not willing to learn something different, that's your own pride getting in the way. So it is. But can you talk a little bit about what you do, what you offer, how people can reach you, if they want to work with you, where they can find you. And of course, if you're driving, we're going to link all this up in the show notes. So you don't feel like you have to write it down. Yeah. Yeah. I Help couples, I meet them where they're at and I help couples better their marriages and it can be like, I've helped couples that were so on my podcast, I have, which you're going to be a guest on in a couple of weeks. I have just did an episode on one couple that I helped. He actually tried to commit suicide. Because their marriage was so bad and there, there were a couple of other things that was an issue too, but thankfully he was unsuccessful and they got help. And now their marriage is, is amazing, like absolutely incredible. So I've helped. Couples like all the way from that extreme to couples that are just like, you know, maybe we have a life transition, like now we're empty nesters and like, we're, we're kind of scared. Like, we don't really know how to navigate this or you know, we just had a baby and we don't, you know, our marriage is kind of slipping. So how do we, you know, we're good, but how do we become exceptional? So I, I can help you, you know, either way. So I just, I, that's my, that's what I do. I work a lot with aviation couples because I am, you know, my husband is a pilot and that, you know, aviation and military are just a completely different lifestyle than what people who work in nine to five or an eight to five job are. I do work with other couples as well, but that is something that I do offer that's a little bit more unique than a lot of other coaches. And basically I just do it all through private one on one coaching. My program is about seven months depending on, you know, the severity of, of the issues that you're wanting to work through. But it's one session a week and then you also get Voxer access. And if you're not sure what Voxer is, it's an app that's like a walkie talkie. So your inner seven year old is absolutely loving it. And you can just get ahold of me in between sessions. And then there's also, like, resources and workshops and things that I email out every month, just as as additional support ways. You can find me coaching at recognizing potential dot com is my email. And then my Instagram handle is divorce dot proof dot marriage. I am a national speaker for retreats and conferences. So if you know you're affiliated with a church or an organization that wants to put on a marriage retreat, I absolutely do that. Our marriage conference, I do those on the weekends. And then I have a private Facebook coaching group that if you just search in the groups or search on Facebook recognizing potential, it'll come up. So that's how to get ahold of me. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Cameron, for meeting with me. And thanks for having me. Yes. And I look forward to future collaborations. Yeah, definitely. Have a good afternoon. Yes, you too.